Can Hebrews, Israelites and Jews be used interchangeably?
Strictly speaking, they cannot be used interchangeably, even NT. Because, strictly or technically speaking, Ishmaelites also Hebrews.
The OT is know as the Hebrew bible. Even the Quran also referenced a lot to OT
Think of it as
Hebrews are related to Abraham (Abraham's Descendants) - All Circumcised tribe
- Technically including the Ishmael's Tribe (Ishmaelites)
Israelites are related to Israel (Jacob's Descendants) - All the 12 Tribes of Jacob
Jews are related to Judah (Judah's Descendants)
All Jews and Israelites. All Israelites and Hebrews. All Jews are Hebrews
Not all Israelites are Jews. Not all Hebrews are Israelites. Not all Hebrews are Jews
The Abraham Covenant is Technically based on the PROMISED SONS blood lineage, Not based on Hebrews lineage. So, only the Israelites (Descendants of Jacob) and Jews (Descendants of Judah) are the Covenanted People, Not Hebrews (from Other Abrahamic lineage and Ishmael Lineage)
Covenanted People are based on
Promised Son Lineage Abraham
Not Blood Lineage of Abraham
That's why even though Ishmael was a Hebrew, he was not the Promised lineage of Abraham, only Isaac was the Promised Son, who is the Promised Lineage. Even Isaac descendant Esau (the Edomites) also not the Covenanted people, only Jacob (Israel) lineage. So all Israelites are Covenanted People. But not all Circumcised People are Covenanted People.
But later on, in the NT, all who believe in Jesus become covenanted people, especially the uncircumcised Gentiles.
Was Abraham a Hebrew?
In the biblical and historical context, Abraham is strictly defined as a Hebrew. While he is considered the father of the Jewish people, he lived centuries before the term "Jew" or the religion of "Judaism" existed.
1. Abraham as a Hebrew
The Bible explicitly identifies him as "Abram the Hebrew" (Avram ha-Ivri) in Genesis 14:13, the first time the word appears in Scripture. Scholars and biblical texts provide two primary reasons for this title:
- Lineage: He was a descendant of Eber (or Heber), a great-grandson of Shem. The word "Hebrew" is essentially a patronymic meaning "Eberite".
- Geographic Origin: The root of "Hebrew" (Ivri) means "to cross over" or "the other side". He was called a Hebrew because he crossed the Euphrates River to enter Canaan from Mesopotamia.
2. Is Abraham a "Jew"?
Technically, no, though he is often called "the first Jew" from a modern or theological perspective.
- Etymology: The word "Jew" (Yehudi) is derived from Judah, who was Abraham’s great-grandson. The term only came into common usage much later to describe people from the Kingdom of Judah or the tribe of Judah.
- Timeline: Religious Judaism is traditionally considered to have begun with the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai, roughly 400 to 500 years after Abraham’s time.
Comparison Summary
| Term | Relation to Abraham | Biblical Context |
|---|---|---|
| Hebrew | Explicitly applied to him. | Used for the early patriarchs and as a designation for "outsiders" or "river-crossers". |
| Israelite | He was the grandfather of Israel (Jacob). | Used for the descendants of Jacob (Israel) after his name change. |
| Jew | He was the great-great-grandfather of the first "Jews." | Derived from Judah; became the dominant term only after the Babylonian exile (approx. 500 BCE). |
Abraham is also a central figure in Christianity and Islam, where he is viewed as the spiritual progenitor of all believers and a major prophet, respectively.
These articles distinguish Abraham as "Hebrew" from the later identity of "Jew," detailing the historical and genealogical context:
Would you like to see a family tree showing how the Hebrew lineage split into the different nations mentioned in the Bible, such as the Israelites, Edomites, and Ishmaelites?
Yes, biblically and genealogically,
Ishmael was a Hebrew.The term "Hebrew" (Ivri) describes the lineage and ethnic group descending from Eber, a great-great-great-great-grandfather of Abraham. Because Ishmael was the biological son of "Abraham the Hebrew" (Genesis 14:13), he inherited this ethnic designation.
Why Ishmael is Considered Hebrew
- Paternal Lineage: Since Abraham was a Hebrew, all his biological children—including Ishmael, Isaac, and his six sons with Keturah—were technically Hebrews by blood.
- Cultural Context: Ishmael was born and raised in Abraham's Hebrew household for at least 14 years before he and his mother, Hagar, were sent away.
- Language: The name Ishmael is a Hebrew name (Yishma'el) meaning "God will hear".
Distinctions to Keep in Mind
While Ishmael was a Hebrew, he is distinguished from other biblical groups in the following ways:
- Hebrew vs. Israelite: Ishmael was a Hebrew, but he was not an Israelite. The term "Israelite" refers only to the descendants of his nephew Jacob (who was renamed Israel).
- Hebrew vs. Jew: Like Abraham and Isaac, Ishmael was not a "Jew." That term originated centuries later to describe the descendants of Judah.
- Father of the Arabs: In both Jewish and Islamic tradition, Ishmael is regarded as the progenitor of the Arab people (specifically the "Arabized Arabs" of North and Central Arabia).
Would you like to see a chart showing how the "Hebrew" branch of the family tree split into different nations like the Ishmaelites, Edomites, and Israelites?
This chart outlines the biblical lineage from the early "Hebrew" ancestors through Abraham and identifies the major nations—the
Ishmaelites, Edomites, and Israelites—that branched out from this line. The Hebrew Family Tree
- Shem (Son of Noah)
- ... (generations)
- Eber (The root of the word "Hebrew")
- ... (generations)
- Abraham (The first specifically named "Hebrew")
- With Hagar: Ishmael ➔ ISHMAELITES
- Prophesied to become "twelve princes" or tribes.
- Historically associated with North and Central Arabian tribes.
- With Sarah: Isaac
- Esau (Renamed Edom) ➔ EDOMITES
- Established the kingdom in the region of Seir.
- Kings such as Herod the Great had Edomite ancestry.
- Jacob (Renamed Israel) ➔ ISRAELITES
- Branched into the Twelve Tribes of Israel (Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin).
- The tribe of Judah eventually became the primary origin of the modern term "Jew".
- Esau (Renamed Edom) ➔ EDOMITES
- With Keturah: Midian, etc. ➔ MIDIANITES
- With Hagar: Ishmael ➔ ISHMAELITES
Key Historical Branches
| Nation | Ancestor | Relation to Israel | Primary Location |
|---|---|---|---|
| Ishmaelites | Ishmael | Uncle (to Jacob) | Sinai and Arabian Desert |
| Edomites | Esau | Brother (to Jacob) | Seir / Southern Jordan |
| Israelites | Jacob | Self | Canaan / Modern Israel |
| Midianites | Midian | Great-uncle (to Jacob) | East of the Gulf of Aqaba |
The Bible also notes that these nations frequently interacted; for example, the Edomites and Israelites were often at war despite their "brotherly" connection.
Would you like me to create a visual diagram focusing specifically on the Twelve Tribes of Israel and their unique territories in the Promised Land?
That is correct.
In a strict biblical and historical sense, all Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews. The distinction lies in the difference between the nation of Israel (all twelve tribes) and the Kingdom of Judah (the origin of the term "Jew").
The Biblical Logic
- All Jews are Israelites: The word "Jew" (Yehudi) originally referred to members of the tribe of Judah. Since Judah was one of the twelve sons of Jacob (Israel), every descendant of Judah is automatically an Israelite.
- Not all Israelites are Jews: There were ten other tribes—such as Reuben, Dan, and Asher—who were full Israelites but were never called "Jews" in early biblical history. For example, an Israelite from the tribe of Ephraim was a member of the "House of Israel" but not a "Jew" from the "House of Judah".
Why the Terms Shifted
The confusion often comes from how history unfolded after the death of King Solomon:
- The Split: The United Monarchy divided into the Kingdom of Israel (10 northern tribes) and the Kingdom of Judah (2 southern tribes: Judah and Benjamin).
- The Exile: The northern kingdom was conquered by Assyria, and those tribes were largely scattered or "lost".
- The Survival of "Jew": The southern kingdom (Judah) survived longer. When they eventually returned from their own exile in Babylon, the term "Jew" became the dominant name for the remaining Israelites.
Modern Context
Today, the terms are often used interchangeably because modern Jewish people are the primary identifiable descendants of the ancient Israelites. However, some groups, such as the Samaritans, still exist today and identify as Israelites but specifically not as Jews.
These resources explore the historical and biblical distinction between "Israelites" as the descendants of Jacob and "Jews" as descendants of the tribe of Judah.
Would you like to see a map or list of where each of the Twelve Tribes originally settled in the Promised Land before the kingdoms split?
We often said Jews are the God chosen people group. So it is wrong to say that, it should be more accurate to say Israelites are God's chosen people group?
In terms of biblical and historical precision,
it is more accurate to say that the Israelites are God’s chosen people, though "Jews" is often used as a modern synonym.The distinction matters because the "chosen" status was originally given to the entire nation of 12 tribes, not just the single tribe that became known as the Jews.
1. The Original Choice: All 12 Tribes
In the Old Testament, God’s covenant was made with the "House of Israel" (all descendants of Jacob/Israel).
- The Verse: Deuteronomy 7:6 states, "For you are a people holy to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own treasured possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth".
- The Scope: This choosing included all twelve tribes (Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, etc.). At this time, they were collectively called Israelites.
2. Why "Jews" Became the Common Term
As discussed previously, the term "Jew" only applied to the tribe of Judah (and Benjamin) after the kingdom split.
- Survival: Because the 10 northern tribes of Israel were eventually scattered and lost to history, the survivors from the southern kingdom (Judah) became the primary remaining representatives of the original covenant.
- Synonyms: Over time, "Jews" and "Israelites" began to be used interchangeably in religious contexts because modern Jewish people are the identifiable descendants of that ancient chosen group.
3. Theological Perspectives
Different faiths interpret "chosenness" in varying ways:
- Jewish View: Believes the covenant remains with the Jewish people as the direct heirs of the Israelite legacy, carrying the responsibility of the Torah.
- Christian View: Many Christians believe the "chosen" status was expanded or transferred to the Church (both Jew and Gentile) through Jesus, often referring to this as "Spiritual Israel".
- Islamic View: Acknowledges the Israelites were favored by God in their time (Quran 2:47) but views the final revelation as passing through Ishmael’s lineage to Muhammad.
Summary Table of Terms
| Term | Biblical Accuracy for "Chosen" | Definition |
|---|---|---|
| Israelites | Highly Accurate | All 12 tribes that received the original covenant at Sinai. |
| Jews | Contextually Accurate | Specifically the tribe of Judah; used as a modern shorthand for the whole group. |
| Hebrews | Ancestrally Accurate | The broader ethnic family of Abraham, though the "chosen" covenant specifically began with his grandson Jacob (Israel). |
I can provide a concise summary of the specific promises God made in the "Abrahamic Covenant" to show exactly what was promised to this chosen group. Would you like to review those promises?
Based on Deuteronomy 7:6, the word Holy is used as separated, set apart, why was it use as sanctification word?
In
Deuteronomy 7:6
, the word "holy" (qadosh) is used as a word of sanctification because, in the biblical world, "being set apart" and "being purified" are two sides of the same coin. While we often think of "sanctification" as just being a "good person," its biblical use in this verse functions in three specific ways:
1. The Literal Root: "To Cut Off"
The Hebrew word for holy, qadosh, literally means "to cut" or "to separate".
- Separation for a Purpose: When God calls Israel "holy," He is physically and spiritually "cutting them away" from the common practices of other nations.
- Sanctification as Dedication: To "sanctify" something means to put a "reserved" sign on it. Just as a vessel in the temple was "holy" not because it had good character, but because it was reserved only for God's use, the people were sanctified because they were reserved for God's exclusive possession.
2. Status vs. Conduct (Indicative vs. Imperative)
Deuteronomy 7:6 describes a positional sanctification.
- The Status (You ARE Holy): God declares the people holy based on His choice, not their behavior. This is "sanctification as a status".
- The Conduct (BE Holy): Because they already have the status of being set apart, they are then commanded to live out that identity through moral purity (sanctification as conduct). You cannot be "set apart" for a perfect God while remaining in "common" or "unclean" sin.
3. Moral Purity as a Requirement of Proximity
In the Bible, holiness is also about spatial proximity to God.
- God is the source of all holiness. For a person to be "set apart" to be near God, they must undergo a process of purification (sanctification) because God's nature is incompatible with anything unclean.
- Therefore, "set apart" (the position) naturally leads to "purified" (the process), which is why the terms are often used interchangeably in scripture.
Summary Table
| Concept | Hebrew/Greek | Meaning in Deuteronomy 7:6 |
|---|---|---|
| Holiness | Qadosh | The state of being distinct/separated from the common. |
| Sanctification | Hagiazo/Sanctificare | The act of making or declaring something set apart for God. |
Since you're interested in the deeper meaning of these terms, would you like to see a list of other objects in the Bible that were "sanctified" (like the Sabbath or temple tools) to see how the "set apart" rule applied to things that couldn't "behave" morally?
Yes, based on the biblical and genealogical definition of the word,
the entire lineage of Ishmael is technically Hebrew.This is because "Hebrew" (Ivri) is an ethnic and genealogical designation that applies to all descendants of Eber (the great-great-great-great-grandfather of Abraham).
Key Reasons Ishmael’s Lineage is Hebrew
- Paternal Descent: In the biblical system, lineage follows the father. Since Abraham was "the Hebrew" (Genesis 14:13), all of his biological children—including Ishmael—were born as Hebrews.
- The "Children of Eber": The term "Hebrew" comes from the name Eber. According to Genesis 10, the "children of Eber" included many tribes beyond just the Israelites, such as the Ishmaelites, Edomites, and Midianites.
- Early Language: Ishmaelites likely spoke a Northwest Semitic dialect very similar to the Hebrew spoken by the early Israelites, as they were part of the same "river-crossing" nomadic group.
Why We Don't Often Call Them "Hebrews" Today
While technically correct, there are three reasons this term is rarely used for Ishmaelites in modern times:
- Identity Shift: Over thousands of years, the descendants of Ishmael became associated with the Arab identity. Today, "Hebrew" is almost exclusively used to refer to the Jewish people and the Hebrew language.
- Religious Distinction: In the Bible, the "Hebrew" designation eventually became a synonym for the Israelites because they were the group that maintained the central narrative of the Old Testament.
- Covenantal Focus: While Ishmael was a Hebrew by blood, the Bible specifies that God’s primary covenant was established through Isaac. Consequently, the term "Hebrew" in a religious context often follows the "line of promise" rather than just the "line of blood."
To summarize: In the same way that a person might be "European" by heritage but identify as "French" or "German," the Ishmaelites were "Hebrew" by heritage but are known to history as their own distinct nations.
Would you like to see how the Bible describes the "blessing of Ishmael" and how it differs from the covenant with Isaac?
So Mohammad was also a Hebrew? Did the Arab world traced this historic fact and see themselves as Hebrew by heritage?
In Islamic tradition and historical genealogy, Muhammad is considered a direct descendant of Abraham through
Ishmael, making him part of the broader Hebrew heritage. However, the way the Arab world views and uses this heritage differs significantly from how the term "Hebrew" is used in a Jewish or Western context. Was Muhammad a Hebrew?
- Genealogical Link: Muhammad’s lineage is traced back to Adnan, a legendary figure widely accepted by medieval Arab genealogists and traditional Islamic scholars as a direct descendant of Ishmael. Since Ishmael was "the Hebrew" by paternal descent from Abraham, his descendants—including the branch that led to Muhammad—are technically of Hebrew heritage.
- Tribal Identity: Muhammad belonged to the Quraysh tribe, specifically the branch of Banu Hashim. Islamic traditions hold that the Quraysh were part of the "Adnanite" or "Arabized" Arabs, who are distinguished from the "pure" southern Arabs (Qahtanites) by their specific descent from Ishmael.
How the Arab World Views This Heritage
The Arab world generally does not use the term "Hebrew" to describe themselves, despite acknowledging the shared ancestry.
- Identity Shift: In Arab tradition, Ishmael is said to have moved to Mecca, married into the local Jurhum tribe, and learned Arabic. Because he "became" Arab, his descendants are called Musta'ribah ("Arabized Arabs") rather than Hebrews.
- Religious Terminology: The term "Hebrew" became so closely associated with the Israelites (descendants of Isaac) and the Jewish religion that it ceased to be a primary descriptor for the Ishmaelite line. Instead, Arabs trace their pride to being Ishmaelites and descendants of Abraham (Ibrahim).
- "Cousinhood": It is a well-known cultural and historical concept in the Middle East that Jews and Arabs are "cousins". This recognition is based on the shared Hebrew root through Abraham, even if the distinct labels (Arab vs. Jew) now define the two groups.
Scholarly and Historical Perspectives
- Historical Debates: While religious tradition is firm on this lineage, some modern historians and secular scholars point out that there are no contemporary written records from the 2,000-year gap between Ishmael and Adnan to scientifically verify the connection.
- Jewish/Biblical View: Traditional Jewish sources also acknowledge the Ishmaelites as a separate branch of Abraham’s family, often referring to Arabs as "Ishmaelites" in classical literature.
I can provide a side-by-side comparison of the genealogies of the "Adnanite" (Ishmaelite) Arabs versus the "Israelite" (Isaac) branch to show exactly where the two lines diverge. Would you like to see that?
Exactly. Your summary is genealogically perfect based on the biblical text:
All Israelites are Hebrews, but not all Hebrews are Israelites.This is because "Hebrew" is the broad family name, while "Israelite" is one specific branch of that family.
The "Hebrew" Umbrella
Biblically, a Hebrew is any descendant of Eber (the great-great-great-great-grandfather of Abraham). Eber had two sons who founded massive, separate lineages:
- Peleg: His line led to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel).
- Joktan: His line led to 13 different tribes who settled in the Arabian Peninsula.
Because both Peleg and Joktan were sons of Eber, all their descendants are technically Hebrews. This means thousands of people in the ancient world—including the ancestors of various Arab tribes—were Hebrews but had nothing to do with the nation of Israel.
The Specific "Israelite" Branch
An Israelite is strictly a descendant of Jacob, who was renamed Israel.
- Jacob was a Hebrew (through his grandfather Abraham), so all his children (the 12 tribes) are also Hebrews.
- However, Jacob's cousins (the Ishmaelites) and his brother's descendants (the Edomites) were also Hebrews, but they were not Israelites because they did not descend from Jacob.
Summary of the Relationship
| Group | Broad Category | Specific Definition |
|---|---|---|
| Hebrews | Ethnic/Ancestral Root | All descendants of Eber (includes Israelites, Ishmaelites, Edomites, and Joktanites). |
| Israelites | Tribal/National Branch | Only the descendants of Jacob (Israel). |
| Jews | Religious/Sub-tribal Branch | Historically, the descendants of the Tribe of Judah (a branch of the Israelites). |
To help visualize this, I can create a chart showing the "Non-Israelite Hebrews" (like the sons of Joktan or the descendants of Abraham's other wife, Keturah) to show just how large the Hebrew family actually was. Would you like to see that?
All Jews are Israelites. All Israelites are Hebrews. Not all Hebrews are Israelites. Not all Israelites are Jews. This can be very confusing
It is indeed confusing because these terms are often used interchangeably today, but they actually represent different "nested" layers of identity that evolved over thousands of years
. Think of it like a set of Russian nesting dolls, where each label gets more specific:
1. Hebrews (The Largest Doll)
- Definition: Descendants of Eber (a great-great-great-great-grandfather of Abraham).
- Scope: Includes Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob—but also Abraham’s other children like Ishmael and his brother Esau.
- Why it's confusing: While technically all these people are "Hebrews," the Bible eventually uses the term almost exclusively for the line leading to Israel.
2. Israelites (The Middle Doll)
- Definition: Specifically the descendants of Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel.
- Scope: Includes all 12 tribes (e.g., Reuben, Dan, Levi, Judah, etc.).
- Why it's confusing: Not all "Hebrews" are Israelites. For example, an Ishmaelite is a Hebrew (descendant of Abraham and Eber) but is not an Israelite.
3. Jews (The Smallest Doll)
- Definition: Originally just the descendants of the Tribe of Judah.
- Scope: After the northern 10 tribes were lost in history, the survivors of the southern kingdom (Judah) became the primary remaining representatives of the nation.
- Why it's confusing: Not all "Israelites" were Jews. A person from the tribe of Asher or Dan was an Israelite, but historically they were not "Jews" until that term became a catch-all for the entire surviving remnant after the Babylonian exile.
Summary of Your Logic:
- All Jews are Israelites: True. Judah was a son of Israel.
- All Israelites are Hebrews: True. Israel (Jacob) was a descendant of Eber.
- Not all Hebrews are Israelites: True. Ishmaelites and Edomites are Hebrews but not Israelites.
- Not all Israelites are Jews: True. Ancient members of the other 11 tribes were Israelites but not part of Judah.
| Term | Identity Type | Modern Equivalent |
|---|---|---|
| Hebrew | Ancestral/Ethnic | Mostly used for the language today. |
| Israelite | Tribal/National | Used for biblical history. |
| Jew | Religious/Cultural | The standard modern identity. |
| Israeli | Political/Citizenship | A citizen of the modern State of Israel. |
To help clear up any remaining confusion, I can create a timeline showing exactly when these terms changed—from "Hebrew" in the desert to "Jew" in the Roman Empire. Would that be helpful?
The shift from "Israelite" to "Jew" is essentially a change from a
tribal identifier to a national and religious one. While originally a "Jew" (Yehudi) was only someone from the tribe of Judah, several historical events forced this label onto all remaining Israelites. 1. The Kingdom Identity
After the nation of Israel split into two, the southern kingdom was named the because the tribe of Judah was its dominant force. This kingdom also included the tribe of Benjamin, the tribe of Levi, and refugees from various northern tribes who fled south to stay loyal to Jerusalem. Just as everyone in the UK is "British" regardless of their city, every citizen of this kingdom—regardless of their original tribe—became a "Judahite" or "Jew" in the eyes of the world.
2. The "Survival" Factor
In 722 BCE, the Northern Kingdom (the 10 tribes) was conquered by Assyria and its people were largely scattered or lost to history. Only the survived as a distinct political and cultural entity. When the Babylonians later exiled these survivors, they referred to the entire group as Yehudim (Jews) because they all came from that one surviving state.
3. Biblical Examples of the Shift
The Bible itself shows that "Jew" became a generic term for all Israelites:
- Mordecai: In the Book of Esther, he is explicitly called a Jew (Yehudi), yet the text also says he was from the tribe of Benjamin.
- The Apostle Paul: In the New Testament, Paul calls himself a Jew (Acts 22:3) but also clarifies he is an Israelite from the tribe of Benjamin (Philippians 3:5).
Summary of the Transition
| Phase | Term Used | Meaning |
|---|---|---|
| Exodus/Conquest | Israelite | A member of any of the 12 tribes. |
| Divided Kingdom | Judahite (Jew) | A citizen of the Southern Kingdom (Tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi). |
| Post-Exile to Present | Jew | Any person of Israelite descent or a follower of Judaism. |
Essentially, the "Jew" label stuck because the was the only part of the family that maintained its identity and returned to the land after exile.
Since you mentioned how confusing this is, I can create a "Who’s Who" cheat sheet that summarizes the differences between Hebrew, Israelite, Jew, and Israeli in one simple list. Would that help clear it up?
This is the "million-dollar question" of biblical genealogy. To find these
non-Israelite Hebrews, we have to look at the other branches of Abraham's family tree that did not follow the line of Isaac and Jacob.While these groups are "Hebrew" by blood, their "covenant" status is handled differently in the Bible compared to the Israelites.
1. Where are they today?
Historically, these groups didn't "disappear"—they became the major nations surrounding ancient Israel.
- The Ishmaelites (Descendants of Ishmael): Traditionally identified as the ancestors of the North and Central Arab peoples. In modern terms, much of the Arab world is genealogically linked to this Hebrew branch.
- The Edomites (Descendants of Esau): They lived in the region of Seir (modern-day southern Jordan). By the 1st century BCE, they were forcibly integrated into the Jewish people under the Hasmonean dynasty (becoming "Jews" by conversion). Herod the Great was an ethnic Edomite.
- The Midianites (Descendants of Keturah): Abraham had six other sons with Keturah. They settled "to the east" and eventually assimilated into the broader Ishmaelite/Arab populations over time.
2. Are they "Covenanted People"?
This is where the Bible makes a very sharp distinction. There are two types of covenants in this family tree:
| Group | The "Covenant of Promise" | The "General Blessing" |
|---|---|---|
| Israelites/Jews | Yes. The specific covenant involving the Land of Canaan and the Messiah was given strictly through Isaac and Jacob. | Also blessed with fruitfulness. |
| Non-Israelite Hebrews | No. God explicitly told Abraham that the primary covenant would not go through Ishmael or Keturah’s sons. | Yes. God made a separate promise to Ishmael to make him "a great nation" and give him "twelve princes" because he was Abraham's son. |
3. The "New Covenant" Shift
In 2025, many theologians point out that the New Covenant (through Jesus) changed the "rules" of who is considered God's people:
- Spiritual Heritage: The New Testament argues that anyone (Hebrew, Jew, or Gentile) who has faith in Christ becomes "Abraham’s offspring" and an heir to the promise.
- Universal Access: Because of this, the physical "Hebrew" bloodline is no longer the requirement for being in a covenant relationship with God; it is now based on a spiritual connection through Jesus.
Summary: The non-Israelite Hebrews are largely the Arab peoples of today. While they carry the physical Hebrew heritage of Abraham, the Bible views them as receiving a "blessing of greatness" rather than the specific "covenant of the Promised Land," which was reserved for the line of Isaac.
I can create a comparative timeline showing when each of these nations (Ishmaelites, Edomites, Midianites) flourished and how they interacted with Israel. Would that be helpful?
So the Edomites, the Midianites also Hebrews, God covenanted people, then why the Jews never considered them as covenanted people
While the Edomites and Midianites shared the same "Hebrew" blood as the Israelites, Jews never considered them "covenanted" because of the specific way the
covenantal line of promise was narrowed in the biblical narrative.The distinction between a general blessing and a specific covenant is key to understanding this.
1. The Narrowing of the Covenant
While Abraham was the father of many nations, God explicitly narrowed the specific covenant regarding the Promised Land and the coming Messiah at each generation:
- Abraham: All his sons received a blessing, but God told him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned" (Genesis 21:12).
- Isaac: He had two sons, Esau (Edom) and Jacob (Israel). Although Esau was the firstborn, the covenant passed to Jacob.
- The Result: Because they were excluded from this specific lineage, the Edomites and Midianites were seen as relatives (or "brothers"), but not as heirs to the Sinai Covenant given only to the 12 Tribes of Israel.
2. General Blessing vs. Specific Covenant
The Bible distinguishes between two ways God interacted with this broader family:
- The "General Blessing" of Abraham: This was given to all of Abraham's descendants. For example, God promised to make Ishmael a great nation and gave Esau (Edom) his own land in Mount Seir, which God strictly forbade the Israelites from taking (Deuteronomy 2:5).
- The "Mosaic Covenant" (Sinai): This was a specific, conditional agreement made between God and the 12 tribes of Israel after they left Egypt. Since the Edomites and Midianites were already separate nations with their own territories, they were not part of this "national contract" and the laws (Torah) that came with it.
3. Historical and Moral Conflict
Jews also distanced themselves from these groups due to centuries of intense rivalry and moral differences:
- Edomite Betrayal: The Edomites were often viewed as "traitor brothers". When Babylon destroyed Jerusalem in 586 BCE, the Edomites reportedly helped the invaders and mocked the Israelites' suffering (Psalm 137:7, Obadiah 1:10–14).
- Midianite Conflict: While Moses had a positive relationship with his Midianite father-in-law, Jethro, other Midianite groups later tried to lead the Israelites into idolatry, leading to major wars.
Summary of Differences
| Group | Hebrew Blood? | Covenant of Promise? | Final History |
|---|---|---|---|
| Edomites | Yes (through Esau) | No (rejected birthright) | Forcibly converted to Judaism in 125 BCE; later assimilated into the Jewish people. |
| Midianites | Yes (through Keturah) | No (never included) | Became nomadic tribes in Arabia; eventually assimilated into broader Arab populations. |
| Israelites | Yes (through Jacob) | Yes (the Chosen line) | Became the Jewish people who carry the covenantal identity today. |
Would you like to see a list of the specific laws in the Torah that governed how Israelites were required to treat their "brother" Edomites versus other foreign nations?
While the
Abrahamic Covenant was technically made with Abraham and his descendants, the Bible distinguishes between all physical descendants and the specific "descendants of promise."Here is why the other Hebrew groups (like Ishmaelites and Edomites) are not traditionally considered the "covenanted people" by Jews:
1. The Narrowing of the Promise
The original covenant in Genesis 12, 15, and 17 was indeed for Abraham's "seed," but God progressively specified which branch would carry the "everlasting covenant".
- The Isaac Clause: When Abraham asked for Ishmael to be his heir, God replied, "No... my covenant I will establish with Isaac". This specific covenant included the Land of Canaan and the future Messiah.
- The Jacob Clause: In the next generation, although Esau was a Hebrew firstborn, the covenant was reaffirmed strictly with Jacob (renamed Israel).
2. General Blessing vs. Special Covenant
God recognized all Hebrews as Abraham’s children, but He gave them different "packages":
- The Special Covenant (Israelites): Received the "Land of Promise," the Law (Torah) at Sinai, and the mission to be a "kingdom of priests".
- The General Blessing (Other Hebrews): God promised to make Ishmael a "great nation" and give him "twelve princes" because he was Abraham's son. Similarly, He gave Esau (Edom) his own land in Mount Seir, which was protected by God from Israelite conquest.
3. Circumcision: The Mixed Sign
Interestingly, all of Abraham's male descendants—including Ishmael and his servants—were commanded to be circumcised as a sign of the covenant.
- While they carried the sign of being Abraham's household, the Bible clarifies that the inheritance was not attached to the physical sign alone, but to the specific "child of promise".
4. The New Testament Shift
From a 2025 theological perspective, the New Testament argues that the "true" heirs of the Abrahamic Covenant are not defined by bloodline at all, but by faith.
- Galatians 3:29 states: "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise".
- This means that while the other Hebrew nations were physically related to Abraham, the "covenant" is now seen as accessible to all people (including Arabs, Jews, and Gentiles) through faith in Jesus.
Summary Table
| Hebrew Group | Relation | Divine Status | Result |
|---|---|---|---|
| Israelites (Jews) | Through Jacob | Heirs of the Covenant | Received the Land and the Torah. |
| Ishmaelites (Arabs) | Through Ishmael | Blessed for Abraham's sake | Became a great nation; not heirs to Canaan. |
| Edomites | Through Esau | Blessed for Isaac's sake | Given their own land; lost the covenant birthright. |
Would you like to see a comparison of how the Bible and the Quran view the "Chosen" status of Isaac versus Ishmael? This highlights the fundamental difference in how these two groups understand their heritage today.
While the 12 tribes of Israel, the Edomites, and the Midianites are the most famous, the Bible identifies several other nations and tribes as
Hebrews because they descend from Eber (the root of "Hebrew") or from Abraham's other family branches.1. The Joktanite Tribes (Descendants of Eber)
In the genealogy of Genesis 10, Eber has two sons: Peleg (ancestor of Abraham) and Joktan. All descendants of both are technically Hebrews. The 13 tribes of Joktan are considered the "purest" ancestors of the Arabian peoples:
- Almodad, Sheleph, Hazarmaveth, Jerah, Hadoram, Uzal, Diklah, Obal, Abimael, Sheba, Ophir, Havilah, and Jobab.
- These groups established major civilizations in Southern Arabia (modern-day Yemen and Oman).
2. The Ishmaelite Tribes (Descendants of Abraham & Hagar)
The 12 sons of Ishmael formed powerful tribes in the desert regions:
- Nebaioth, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah (Genesis 25:13–15).
- They are traditionally viewed as the ancestors of various North and Central Arabian tribes.
3. The Other Tribes of Keturah (Abraham’s Second Wife)
Besides Midian, Abraham had five other sons with Keturah, whose descendants formed numerous tribes "in the east":
- Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Ishbak, and Shuah.
- Sub-tribes from Jokshan: The Shebans and Dedanites (ancestors of the Asshurim, Letushim, and Leummim).
- Sub-tribes from Midian: Ephah, Epher, Hanoch, Abida, and Eldaah.
4. Other Notable Relatives (Hebrew-Related Groups)
While not always labeled "Hebrew" in modern daily use, the following groups are closely related and shared the same language family and ancestral roots:
- Amalekites: Descendants of Amalek, the grandson of Esau (making them a branch of the Edomites).
- Moabites and Ammonites: Descendants of Lot (Abraham's nephew). Because Lot was the son of Abraham's brother Haran (a descendant of Eber), they are technically part of the Hebrew family.
| Branch | Founding Ancestor | Relation to Israel | Modern Identification |
|---|---|---|---|
| Joktanites | Joktan (Eber's son) | Distant Cousins | Southern Arabians (Yemen/Oman) |
| Ishmaelites | Ishmael (Abraham's son) | Half-Brothers | Northern/Central Arabians |
| Keturahites | 6 Sons of Keturah | Half-Brothers | Various East-Arabian & African tribes |
| Edomites | Esau (Isaac's son) | Brother Nation | Southern Jordan/Idumeans |
I can provide a detailed list of the exact modern-day countries where these ancient Hebrew-descended tribes are believed to have settled. Would you like to see that map of locations?
The reason these groups are often treated separately from the "Hebrew" list is that, although they are biologically related to Abraham,
they either fall outside the direct lineage of the patriarch Eber or they are viewed as "apostate" branches that lost their covenantal status through their actions. Here is the breakdown of why each group is unique in the biblical family tree:
1. The Amalekites (Descendants of Esau)
The Amalekites are technically part of the Hebrew family because they are descendants of Esau, the brother of Jacob.
- The Relation: Amalek was the grandson of Esau (Isaac’s son).
- Why they are excluded: In the Bible, they are portrayed as the "archetypal enemy" of the Israelites. Because they were the first to attack the Israelites after the Exodus, God declared an eternal war against them, commanding that their "memory be blotted out". This extreme hostility severed them from the "Hebrew" identity in the eyes of the biblical writers.
2. Moabites and Ammonites (Descendants of Lot)
These two nations are the most closely related "non-Hebrew" relatives of Israel.
- The Relation: They were the descendants of Lot, who was Abraham’s nephew.
- Are they "Hebrews"? Genealogically, yes, because Lot was also a descendant of Eber.
- Why they are excluded: The Bible views them as a "disgraceful" branch due to their origins through Lot's incest with his daughters. Furthermore, because they refused to provide food and water to the Israelites and hired the prophet Balaam to curse them, God strictly forbade them from entering the "assembly of the Lord" for ten generations.
Revised Summary Table of Hebrew-Related Nations
| Group | Origin | Relation to Israel | Biblical Status |
|---|---|---|---|
| Israelites | Jacob | Self | Primary Heirs of the Covenant at Sinai. |
| Edomites | Esau | Brother Nation | Relatives; forbidden from being "abhorred" by Israel. |
| Amalekites | Esau's Grandson | Renegade Branch | Permanent Enemies; to be blotted out. |
| Moab/Ammon | Lot (Nephew) | Cousin Nations | Kinship acknowledged, but barred from the assembly. |
| Ishmaelites | Ishmael | Half-Brother Nation | Blessed with greatness but excluded from the Land promise. |
The crucial point: While all these groups share "Hebrew blood" (descendants of Eber), the Bible uses the term "Hebrew" almost like a title of honor for those within the specific Covenant of Promise. Groups like the Amalekites and Moabites are treated as "relatives who turned their backs," effectively losing their place in that specific identity.
These articles explain why Amalekites, Moabites, and Ammonites are distinct from the primary Hebrew lineage due to historical enmity and lineage divergence:
Would you like to see a list of the specific curses and blessings assigned to these relative nations in the prophetic books of the Bible?
So, other non Promised Hebrew lineage, other Israelites lineage, are all these classified under Gentiles? Because the bible only have 2 classification. Jews or Gentiles, not even Israelites and Gentiles
While the Bible frequently uses a
Jew vs. Gentile binary, the status of non-Jewish Hebrews and Israelites is more nuanced. Biblically, "Gentile" (Hebrew: goy; Greek: ethnos) simply means "nations" and was originally a neutral term for any people group, including Israel. Over time, it became a functional label for anyone outside the current covenant community.
1. Are Non-Jewish Israelites "Gentiles"?
Strictly speaking, in biblical terminology, Israelites are never called Gentiles. However, because the Northern Kingdom (the 10 "Lost Tribes") was scattered and assimilated into other nations after the Assyrian conquest in 722 BCE, their descendants are often categorized with the Gentiles in a practical sense:
- The "Jew" Label: After the Babylonian exile, "Jew" became the dominant term for the surviving remnant (mostly Judah and Benjamin).
- The "Israelite" Distinction: While the 10 tribes remained "Israelites" by blood, those who lived like non-Jews or were uncircumcised were sometimes treated as Gentiles by the Jewish community of Jesus' time.
- Paul’s Mission: Many scholars believe that when the Apostle Paul spoke of reaching the "Gentiles," he was focused on bringing back the "scattered sheep" of the House of Israel who had been intermingled with other nations.
2. Are Other Hebrew Lineages "Gentiles"?
Yes, despite their "Hebrew" blood, groups like the Ishmaelites, Edomites, and Midianites are almost universally classified as Gentiles in the Bible because they were not part of the Mosaic Covenant at Mount Sinai.
- Covenant vs. Ancestry: Being a "Gentile" in the Bible is defined more by your relationship to the Laws of Moses than by biological ancestry alone.
- Outsiders: Because these groups worshipped other gods and lived outside the Israelite law, they were considered "the nations" (Gentiles), even though they shared a common ancestor (Eber) with the Jews.
3. The 3-Fold Classification
In the New Testament, the classification actually shifts toward a three-fold distinction in some contexts:
- Jews: The circumcised observers of the Law of Moses.
- Gentiles/Greeks: All other nations, including those related to Abraham but outside the Sinai covenant.
- The Church: Paul describes a "one new man" where the distinction between Jew and Gentile is abolished through faith in Christ.
| Group | Ancestral Status | Biblical Category | Covenant Relationship |
|---|---|---|---|
| Jews | Israelites (Judah/Benjamin) | Jew | Under Mosaic/Abrahamic Promise |
| Lost 10 Tribes | Israelites (Northern) | Israelites | Scattered among the nations (often treated as Gentiles) |
| Ishmaelites/Edomites | Hebrews (Non-Israelite) | Gentiles | Not under the Mosaic Covenant |
| Romans/Greeks | Non-Hebrew | Gentiles | No biological connection to the Promise |
To help clarify this further, I can provide a visual breakdown of how the term "Gentile" shifted from meaning "any nation" in Genesis to meaning "non-Jew" in the New Testament. Should we explore that transition?
So the NT also wrongly shifted the classification without following the strict linage of the promised son lineage, that confused the whole world. All Other Hebrews who are also practice circumcision should naturally be observing the Mosaic Law and worshipping YHWH technically, it was not limited to the Jews. So strictly speaking, it should be Israelites and Gentiles and the Church.
This classification is a major point of discussion in biblical studies. From a genealogical perspective, your point is strong: if "Hebrew" refers to all descendants of Eber or Abraham, then those other branches (Ishmaelites, Edomites, etc.) should technically be distinguished from non-Hebrew nations (Gentiles).
The reason the New Testament (NT) uses a "Jew vs. Gentile" binary instead of an "Israelite vs. Gentile" or "Hebrew vs. Gentile" one is based on Covenantal Theology rather than biological lineage.
1. The Distinction Between Physical and Promised Lineage
The NT (especially in the writings of Paul) argues that being a "child of Abraham" is not purely a matter of blood, but of selection.
- The Isaac Precedent: Paul points out in Romans 9:7–8 that not all of Abraham's biological children are "his offspring." He reminds readers that God explicitly chose Isaac over Ishmael and Jacob over Esau.
- Definition of Gentile: In the NT context, "Gentile" (ethne) became a functional term for anyone outside the Mosaic Covenant. Even if an Edomite was a Hebrew by blood, they were considered a Gentile because they did not receive the Law at Sinai or possess the "Promise" regarding the Land and the Messiah.
2. Circumcision: General Sign vs. Mosaic Requirement
While you are right that other Hebrew groups practiced circumcision, the Bible views these practices differently:
- The Abrahamic Sign: For the Ishmaelites and others, circumcision was a general sign of descent from Abraham.
- The Mosaic Law: For Israelites, circumcision was a strictly regulated requirement for participating in the Passover and the national life of Israel (Exodus 12:48).
- YHWH Worship: While some ancient Edomite and Midianite groups may have originally worshipped YHWH (the "Kenite Hypothesis"), over centuries they developed their own national deities (like Qos for the Edomites). Because they did not strictly follow the Ten Commandments or the Tabernacle system, the NT classifies them as having "exchanged the truth of God for a lie".
3. The Shift in the New Testament
By the time of the NT, the "10 Lost Tribes" had been scattered for 700 years. This created the confusion you noted:
- Lost Identity: Many Israelites had lost their genealogies and lived like non-Hebrews (Gentiles).
- The "Jew" Umbrella: The tribe of Judah was the only group that maintained a visible, legal identity under the Law.
- The Purpose of the Binary: The NT simplifies the categories into "Jews" (those keeping the Law) and "Gentiles" (everyone else) to highlight its central message: that Jesus is the "gate" for both groups equally.
Summary of Classification
| Your Proposed Strict Lineage | Functional NT Classification | Reason for the Label |
|---|---|---|
| Jews (Judah/Benjamin) | Jews | Visible keepers of the Mosaic Law. |
| Israelites (The 10 Tribes) | Gentiles (Scattered) | Often uncircumcised and living among nations. |
| Non-Israelite Hebrews | Gentiles | Not part of the Sinai/Mosaic Covenant. |
| The Church | The "New Man" | A spiritual union of all the above. |
The "confusion" you see is often what theologians call the "Great Mystery"—the idea that God’s promise expanded from a physical bloodline to a spiritual one through Christ, essentially "grafting in" anyone who has the faith of Abraham, regardless of which branch of the tree they come from.
Would you like to see a breakdown of the "Lost 10 Tribes" and where they were scattered, as some believe they are the "Gentiles" Paul was specifically trying to reach?
So it was because of the lost tribes of Israel (other 10 northern tribes), that's why the NT didn't use Israelites to classified the Promised lineage, instead, the NT used Jews as the Promised lineage?
In 2025, biblical scholarship and traditional views clarify that while the "lost" status of the ten northern tribes contributed to the prominence of the term "Jew," the
did not replace the "Israelite" identity with "Jew." Instead, it used both terms to distinguish between political/ethnic reality and theological destiny. 1. "Jew" as the Visible Remnant
By the time of the New Testament, the (the tribes of Judah and Benjamin) was the only part of the nation with a continuous, documented government and religious center in Jerusalem.
- Because the ten northern tribes were exiled by Assyria and largely assimilated or "lost" as distinct tribal units, the term "Jew" (derived from Judah) became the standard name used by both insiders and outsiders (like the Romans) for any member of the surviving covenant community.
- Even individuals from "lost" tribes who remained in the south—like the prophetess Anna from the tribe of Asher—were often categorized as "Jews" in daily life because they were citizens of the Jewish community.
2. "Israel" as the Spiritual Ideal
The NT authors continued to use "Israelite" or "Israel" when they wanted to speak of the theological promise or the full 12-tribe nation.
- The Theological Name: "Israel" remained the "insider" name for the people of God's covenant.
- Paul’s Distinction: In Romans 9–11, Paul calls himself an "Israelite" from the tribe of Benjamin to emphasize his link to the entire covenant, even though he was a "Jew" by citizenship and religion.
- The Future Hope: The NT looks forward to the "restoration of all ," indicating they believed the 10 tribes weren't truly "lost" to God and would eventually be regathered.
3. The Shift in Classification
The NT does not classify the "Promised Lineage" solely as Jews. It introduces a new spiritual category:
- The "New Man": The NT argues that the "true Israel" is not defined by being part of the surviving Jewish tribes, but by faith in the Messiah.
- Grafting In: This allowed Gentiles (including those with scattered Hebrew/Israelite blood who had lost their identity) to be "grafted back" into the olive tree of Israel.
Summary of Labels in the NT
| Group | NT Term Used | Reasoning |
|---|---|---|
| Visible Survivors | Jews | Descendants of the Southern Kingdom ( Judah /Benjamin ). |
| Covenantal Hope | Israel | The full 12-tribe nation as God's chosen unit. |
| Scattered Tribes | Gentiles/Scattered | Many northern Israelites who lost their cultural laws. |
The "confusion" arose because the physical state of the nation (mostly just Jews) didn't match the spiritual promise (all 12 tribes). The NT uses "Jew" to describe the people Jesus was physically born into, but "Israel" to describe the people He came to save and complete.
These articles explain how the terms "Jew" and "Israel" were used distinctly in the New Testament to describe ethnic identity versus theological destiny:
Would you like to see a list of New Testament verses where the authors deliberately switch between using "Jew" and "Israelite" to show this difference in meaning?
So Jesus failed to gather back all the tribes of Israel, that's why the Jews didn't see Jesus as the Messiah. Is one of the Messianic duty was to gather back all the Israelites (all the 12 tribes) back to Israel? Strictly speaking, Israelites and Jews should not be use interchangeably?
In Jewish tradition and biblical prophecy, one of the primary duties of the Messiah is indeed the
ingathering of the exiles, which includes bringing all twelve tribes of Israel back to the Land of Israel. 1. The Messianic Duty to Gather the Tribes
According to the Hebrew Bible and traditional Jewish authorities like Maimonides, the true Messiah must fulfill specific physical requirements:
- Gathering all 12 Tribes: Prophecies such as Isaiah 11:12 and Ezekiel 37:21–22 state that the Messiah will assemble the "outcasts of Israel" (the 10 northern tribes) and the "dispersed of Judah" (the 2 southern tribes) to reunite them as one nation in their land.
- Rebuilding the Temple: He must restore the Third Temple in Jerusalem.
- Universal Peace: He must usher in an era where nations no longer "lift up sword against nation".
2. Why Jews Reject Jesus as the Messiah
The fact that Jesus did not physically gather all the tribes or restore national sovereignty during his lifetime is a central reason why mainstream Judaism rejects his messianic claim.
- First vs. Second Coming: Christian theology argues that Jesus fulfilled spiritual prophecies in his first coming and will fulfill the physical ones (like gathering the tribes) in his Second Coming.
- Jewish Perspective: Judaism maintains that the Messiah must fulfill all prophecies outright in one lifetime; the concept of a "second coming" is not found in the Hebrew scriptures.
3. "Israelites" vs. "Jews": Not Strictly Interchangeable
Historically and biblically, these terms have distinct meanings, though they are often used loosely today.
- Israelite: Refers to any descendant of the 12 sons of Jacob (Israel). This is a broad national and tribal identity.
- Jew: Originally referred specifically to the Tribe of Judah (and Benjamin) who formed the Southern Kingdom. This term only became a general label for all remaining Israelites after the Babylonian exile because they were the primary group that survived as a distinct culture.
- The "Gap": Because the ten northern tribes were scattered by Assyria (the "Lost Tribes"), the New Testament often speaks of "Jews" as the visible group but "Israel" as the complete 12-tribe nation that still awaits full restoration.
Summary Table
| Category | Definition | Biblical Context |
|---|---|---|
| Israelites | Members of all 12 tribes. | The "Whole House of Israel" mentioned in prophecy. |
| Jews | Members of the Tribe of Judah. | The surviving remnant that returned from exile. |
| Messianic Role | Uniter of all 12 tribes. | Must bring both "Israel" and "Judah" back to the land. |
I can provide a side-by-side comparison of specific "Messianic Checklists" used by different faiths (Judaism vs. Christianity) to show exactly which prophecies each group believes Jesus did or did not fulfill. Would you like to see that?
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